NAR's Newest Demon--Talk To Action
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 07:52:07 PM EST
We are pleased to welcome Greg Metzger as a guest front pager. He is an independent writer whose work has appeared in Christian Century, Commonweal, and Books & Culture.  His blog is Debating Obama, where this essay first appeared -- with lots more links. -- FC

I guess I should have seen it coming. I have been reading enough of C. Peter Wagner lately to know that he sees the demonic in everything (including the Statue of Liberty), so I should not have been surprised that he has taken to attacking the major source of information available about the New Apostolic Reformation (outside of Wagner's own house organs, which are notorious for their guarding of basic information). Yet there is something so jarring and spiritually disturbing about his decision to cast Talk To Action as the "voice of the accuser" that I really was surprised when I saw it.
Unlike the other objects and ideas that Wagner has consistently and literally demonized, I know many of the writers at Talk To Action. While I do not agree with everything at their website, I have come to value their work and admire their dogged determination to explain what NAR is and why it matters. If NAR were an ordinary Christian organization I would have expected them to respond to the criticisms and concerns expressed by Talk To Action with facts and counterarguments. I would have expected them to contact the writers personally and present their responses to whatever reporting they disagree with. I have had lengthy correspondence and even phone conversations with writers at Talk To Action and I can attest that it is possible to reach them without much trouble.  But NAR is anything but a normal Christian organization, NAR has ushered in THE SECOND APOSTOLIC AGE. NAR is THE NEW WINE SKIN FOR THESE END-TIMES. NAR is TAKING OVER THE DEVIL'S TERRITORY AROUND THE WORLD.  And since NAR is clearly all of these things, that automatically makes anyone or any institution that criticizes it not merely wrong or mistaken, but the voice of the devil.  And since we defeat the devil by prayer, the perfect way to alert people of the sinister works of the devil through Talk To Action is the tried and true form of the prayer letter. Here, then, is a portion of a recent Wagner prayer letter:

"For those of you who would like to know more of the type of things that are being said and      portrayed concerning Peter and Doris, Cindy Jacobs and Lou Engle, and many others, you can go to www.talk2action.org.  This gives a clear representation of what is being discussed even in conservative Christian arenas.  We need to pray that all false accusations and the voice of the accuser of the brethren be silenced in the name of Jesus! (Emphasis added)  Again, Peter and Doris want to express their sincere gratitude in your faithfulness to stand in intercession on their behalf.  They know without this prayer shield that many situations would not have the breakthroughs and victories they see on a daily basis.  I also want to express how crucial your prayer support is right now for Peter and Doris.  Now is not the time to be lax in our prayers, but remain vigilant on the wall.  Thank you for diligently contending and warring on their behalf. "

What is particularly interesting about this "prayer request" is the way that Wagner has attempted to label Talk To Action as the source for what is being discussed in "conservative Christian arenas".  The reality is that, for all I admire about Talk To Action, their website is anything but representative of the types of concerns that "conservative Christians" have about the New Apostolic Reformation. In fact, many of the posts at their site are about Religious Right groups and individuals not at all about the New Apostolic Reformation. One senses here Wagner's desire to present criticism of NAR as being criticism of the religious right in general, and to present conservative Christian critics of NAR as being in step with the broader purposes of Talk To Action.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  For evidence of the difference simply visit these three leading conservative Christian websites that are documenting what they consider to be NAR's heretical teachings:

   

The Apologetics Coordination Team

    Critical Issues Commentary

    Let Us Reason Ministries

Wagner's demonization of Talk To Action is bad enough; his deceptive presentation of explicitly Christian critics only amplifies the outrage.  Wagner and NAR have grown accustom to making their outrageous claims about demons, dominion and the end-times with impunity.  As the light begins to shine brighter, and the audacity of their claims is understood and more widely refuted, expect more and more accusations to come from those who claim to be fighting "the accuser of our souls."



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NAR's Newest Demon--Talk To Action | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
I am not surprised... (5.00 / 2)
...because I have personally been targeted in NAR pushbacks though not on this scale since it wasn't in national media--it was due to my activity and that of others on a cult discussion forum, albeit one that got their attention.

One has to remember that they have alternative, coded meanings for terms that typically mean something else to the general public or to the Christian subcommunity.  In CPW's parlance, "conservative Christian" means those who are under the control of a "religious spirit" keeping them from accepting the "new wineskins" of the New Apostolic Reformation and resisting their governmental authority, thus keeping them from assuming their rightful role as apostolic leaders of earth ushering in Christ's their millennial reign.  And yes, they do absolutely believe that they have literal governmental authority, or at least the divine mandate for such.

So the fact that they are characterizing this site as "conservative Christian" doesn't necessarily mean they believe it is, BUT it may mean that it is being read BY Christians who are wondering what this NAR thing is all about, just like Deception in the Church/Apologetics Coordination Team, Let Us Reason, etc. and that as you pointed out, they wish to paint it in the same brush with those websites (which can be very helpful for Christians trying to get out of groups like those, BTW).

The thing that the NAR and their subgroups are most afraid of is that Christians, particularly "conservative Christians" in more colloquial terms, will "get it" and speak out, because they can't be so easily discredited as unchristian sinners, demon possessed, etc.

I will say though that unless they think T2A has done something they feel is deserving of something more significant, their attacks will likely be more of the same.  I was really afraid for a while when the Every Nation leadership started making veiled and not so veiled threats about some of the things I and others were posting online (mostly of the legal variety)... but then it dawned on me they were more afraid of me than I of them.  As long as I knew that and acted accordingly they really couldn't (and didn't) do much beyond stuff like this.

by ulyankee on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 08:32:44 PM EST

I would love (5.00 / 1)
to hear more of this story ulyankee. When did this happen to you? Where have you blogged at? Do you know former NAR people who left it? Thanks for sharing.

by gregmetzger on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 11:02:40 PM EST
Parent
A number of years ago now... (5.00 / 1)
I and several others were active on the FACTNet cult discussion forums several years ago, approx 2004-2008... the discussions were very active until FACTNet went to a "pay to post" format which essentially shut it down.  A few of us paid our dues but it was difficult to keep a discussion up... though for a while it was still a high traffic site and was among the most active discussions on FACTNet.  We were discussing Every Nation (prev. Morning Star International), which is directly descended from Maranatha Campus Ministries.  Most of Every Nation's top leaders were leaders in Maranatha, and some of its current churches/ministries are corporately former Maranatha subgroups.  

Most of the former (and current) members who posted on FACTNet focused just on the group per se, but a couple of us, including me, were really concerned about its positioning in the NAR.  My theory is that Maranatha's nascient dominionism, demonology, etc. became much more entrenched and institutionalized as EN developed, and that Maranatha/EN was an influence on CPW and the NAR, and vice versa.  Anyway, CPW was the keynote speaker for Every Nation's international conference in I think 2004 when they announced their name change from Morning Star International (which was when the cult discussions were really taking off so I think that had something to do with the name change).  Anecdotally some people came away from the conference with the impression that CPW was leading EN leadership.  I have the conference CD and his talk was almost exactly the same as the one given elsewhere transcribed on Deception in the Church's website (which I transcribed and sent to them--since you are familiar with their site you've probably seen it).

I think among of the things that really got their attention was (1) we figured out how their governance and financial structures worked and (2) we figured out their real theology (which they hid more and more after the Maranatha "break up" which really wasn't a total break up but a break with Bob Weiner, their former leader).

There were some rumors that some of us might be targeted in defamation lawsuits and I know at least one was actually filed as the person targeted ended up retracting their posts and no longer posted online.  But I tried to keep things really clean and on the up and up... not say anything factual unless it was documented, make sure that any opinions were stated as such, and limit critiques to "public figures" aka published authors and/or top leaders.

But this group was absolutely part of the NAR, was very close to Wagner, and at least two of its leaders (Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon) were on his top apostolic councils.  Due to the FACTNet discussions they supposedly broke with Wagner but I've seen evidence since then that they really haven't, they're just not on the ICA's documented membership roll.

I came close to burn out and after I presented on EN at the ICSA's international conference a few years back and that plus what happened on FACTNet when it went pay to post I decided to step back a while... by then EN was reeling from the downfall of its pro athletic ministry (which was a big source of income), US churches leaving the network, and finally the recession (a lot of their second level leaders really did try to "buy" localities, one upscale neighborhood in the Nashville metro area specifically, and appear to have gotten burned in the real estate crash), and I really didn't have any more to say that would shed any more light on them. I said that would be it for a while.

BTW, when CPW's Dominion! came out, the first thing I thought of was Bob Weiner's Take Dominion! which came out just a year or two before Maranatha's "break up" in 1989.

by ulyankee on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:18:27 AM EST
Parent

Wagner and Weiner (none / 0)
IN at least two of his books, CPW references Bob Weiner's dominion theology as centrally important to the NAR conception of dominion theology.

by Bruce Wilson on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 04:38:49 PM EST
Parent




Thank you for being here Talk2Action! (5.00 / 1)
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi


by TomBishop on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:47:38 AM EST

Why do we care what they think? (5.00 / 1)
As one who is under siege personally from NAR due to my organization's opposition to Dominionism, I think this is a badge of honor for Talk2Action. I think it highly unlikely that they can pray you out of existence or in any other way silence your exposure of their actions. The fact that they noticed is clear evidence that what you are writing, what we all are doing, is compelling. NAR in all its infinite variety, labors best in the shadows. Shine a little light on them and their plans, and they need to fight back. Every voice that is raised in opposition will command their attention, but it also will illuminate their dark vision and predatory politics. Keep up the good work. The bigger their outrage, the more they reveal, and public disclosure is harmful to them, not to you, not to us.

by Churchlady on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 01:29:32 PM EST

Do you hear what I hear? (4.00 / 1)
If Wagner were smart, he'd realize that Talk2Action isn't the one he should fear, but his own followers. The language Wagner uses is very similar to Anwar al-Awlaki, the American citizen assassinated by the CIA for inciting violence in his followers in the U.S. from the comfort of Yemen.

Wagner's thinly veiled dog-whistles could easily be interpreted by his crazy followers as a green-light to perform an act of violence, or even terrorism. When that happens, the United States government will need to make a decision to either apply the same policy evenly, or admit the policy is intended for Muslims alone.  

Wagner is a bully. And, the first rule that every bully should know is, there is always someone bigger and stronger than you. His rhetoric is violent enough, and he's also obscure enough to be painted as just another extremist cleric bent on the violent overthrow of the government.

Perhaps he senses this already, and his lashing out at Talk2Action is an attempt to control that cold shiver crawling up his spine, which sound coincidently like a Predator in the distance.


by Stacey Tallitsch on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 09:35:21 AM EST

Please spare us (5.00 / 1)
such extreme analogies.  

While I appreciate the solidarity, Stacey, analogies in the form of violent fantasies are not helpful on this, or any other occasion.

So please -- everyone -- ratchet down the rhetoric. Way down.  Stay grounded.

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 09:50:52 AM EST
Parent

I agree... (5.00 / 1)
Again, based on my own experience, the battle being posited here is not a literal one or even a spiritual one (spiritualized, yes, but that's different) but one for the opinions and unqualified/unquestioning support of rank and file Christians.

The NAR-affiliated group I was part of was EXTREMELY conscious of how they looked to its general membership and to the general public, and also were well aware what was being said about them in various media.  A lot of this was due to their previous incarnation as one of the more notorious campus "cults" - their takeaway was that they inculcated too many people too fast, so they got much more conscientious and systematic as the successor group developed.

Wagner is concerned about this too... he is on record as saying that the reason why the Latter Rain and Manifest Sons of God movement(s) of the mid 20th century didn't succeed was bad PR.  And the NAR perceives itself as another stab at the Latter Rain movement.

If Christian supporters both in and out of the NAR weren't reading this stuff and taking it seriously, they wouldn't care.  Or if it wasn't at least semi-accurately reflecting their plans, theology, etc. they wouldn't care, because it could be easily discounted internally.  My guess is, again based on my own experience, that much of the real push back may be taking place among current (or former) and potential Christian supporters who are reading this site and the others that Greg Metzger cited.  Those Christian sites (and there are some others) critiquing the NAR are very well known among those in the Christian community who question the NAR's motives and those of the Latter Rain movement from which the NAR is descended.  So the fact that T2A is mentioned in the same breath with them may indicate that T2A's NAR series is effectively reaching that same demographic.

As I've heard leaders from my former group say several times, "We don't want to sound weird."  On his best day CPW may sound weirder than people like Every Nation's leader Rice Broocks who is slick, slick, slick, but there is a boundary and I'm sure CPW and the other NAR leaders don't want to cross it publicly.  Especially not now that they are so closely linked to a viable presidential candidate.

by ulyankee on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 11:01:03 AM EST
Parent

Do you know where I can find... (none / 0)
...that Latter Rain / MSOG CPW reference? It would be extremely helpful.

Also - Yes, I agree that CPW and NAR leaders care at least as much, if not much more, about what conservative Christians think of their movement - which may be why, as Greg Metzer suggests, Wagner has conflated TTA critiques with those coming from "discernment" ministries.

by Bruce Wilson on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 04:43:06 PM EST
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He discusses the Latter Rain's relationship... (none / 0)
...to the NAR in several of his books, but the one I'm recalling is 2002's Spheres of Authority which I have but not handy.  But in 2007's Apostles Today:  Biblical Government for Biblical Power, he states, "I strongly suspect that the major reason why post World War II movements did not carry the day was that the criticism... was too strong to overcome" (16).  In that first chapter of that book it is very obvious that CPW sees the NAR as part of the "Second Apostolic Age" which also includes the Latter Rain movement, and that while objections to the two movements are similar, that now there is enough evidence to overcome opposition to the NAR.

by ulyankee on Sat Oct 15, 2011 at 08:10:12 PM EST
Parent



Having fun. (4.00 / 1)
Sorry Fredrick, while it's true I was having a little fun with Wagner's paranoia. It was really a commentary on my disgust with the current policy of assassinating Americans (who happen to be Muslim) for doing nothing more than say, Wagner, Beck, or Limbaugh.

Acting this way is clearly a War Crime unless it's applied evenly across the entire religious spectrum, with equally violent rhetoric. It remains to be seen if this policy was a one shot exception, or a new way of doing business.

Either way, accountability is what's called for.

by Stacey Tallitsch on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:19:13 AM EST
Parent

Please don't hijack (5.00 / 1)
this site for commentary about unrelated matters.
You can see how it distorts what is already difficult material.  

It seems like a refresher from the site guidelines is in order:

Don't be a troll. People who are offensive or abusive, are trolls. People who willfully hijack comment threads outside any reasonable discussion of the good work of the diarist, are trolls. People who write diaries or make comments obviously beyond the purposes of the site, are trolls. People who do not share the purposes of this site but join anyway, are trolls. Trolls and trollish behavior will not be tolerated.

 

by Frederick Clarkson on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 10:36:34 AM EST
Parent





On the issue of violence (none / 0)
While I get that this is an implicit call to arms on the part of Wagner, do we have any sort of estimate of how his followers will react? After all I have yet to hear of prayer taking down a website.  

by Hirador on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 11:31:25 PM EST
I can tell you how they reacted to us... (none / 0)
What happened over on FACTNet when we got too much attention is that we had trolls try to argue with us and get us off track.  Most were from my former movement, though a couple were "further up" the Christian dominion movement foodchain, including an attorney/activist at one point (same guy btw who previously harrassed the 9/11 Scholars, so I wondered if we were going to be painted as a bunch of conspiracy theorists).  There was also a bit of a war going on in Wikipedia over my former movement's entry since it referred to its association with Wagner and the NAR as well as to its past history as Maranatha.  Also disputable material would just disappear or be edited on the web, which contributors to T2A have already seen in relation to their own work.  Occasionally IP addresses would be tracked and I found myself blocked from a website or two.  But that's as far as it went, other than the handful of veiled legal threats targeted at just a very few very active or seemingly provocative posters, or some questionable phone calls or voice mail messages.  Mostly they tried to keep themselves as hard to pin down theologically and rhetorically as possible rather than actually doing anything of substance.  DOCUMENT EVERYTHING when dealing with people like this.

by ulyankee on Sat Oct 15, 2011 at 08:29:20 PM EST
Parent
If you can document it... (none / 0)
Darla Kay Wynne was lucky in that what she went through for opposing the dominionists was able to be documented (at least, most of it).  David Mullin's dog was poisoned, but it was done in such a way that he couldn't put the blame on the perpetrator.  Our fire, poisoned kitties, and racist graffiti (we're American Indian)... I've got pictures of the fire and the graffiti (some of the researchers have seen them), but since no money - no investigation.

From private conversations with a few people, that seems to be their style - threats to family (also happened in our situation), the fire in the night, poisoned pets, and so on.  Until REALLY provoked (by telling them "No" or suing their churches, for instance), they generally take the coward's way.

I think it depends on (1) the area in which you live, (2) how much you piss them off by resisting them, and (3) how powerless you are to fight back.

On one blog I used to frequent (the trolls destroyed it because the owner didn't want to play "bop-a-troll")... one "Good Christian" (dominionist and possibly NAR) internet stalked me for months... following me to other blogs, using IP spoofing software to get around bans, sending private messages and emails, and so on.  I'd said that one could be Christian and accept that evolution is a fact, by the way - that was what set the jackass off.  I've been wanting to document that situation... so that I would have proof that it happened, but the one witness I know of seems to be unwilling to actually flat-out say I'd been internet stalked (although that person was the one who clued me into what internet stalking was, told me that was what I was experiencing, and even was the one who told me about the laws against it).  It was a scary time... we were afraid that the SOB would actually carry through on some of his threats.

by ArchaeoBob on Sun Oct 16, 2011 at 05:51:41 PM EST
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Okay, I think I've got it (none / 0)
The situation is about as bad as it gets, too subtle for the news, and too vague for the police.

by Hirador on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 05:42:28 PM EST
Parent
More like (none / 0)
ignored by the police and the news.

I don't consider the problems with dominionism to be subtle.  Shoot, sometimes it's in-your-face obvious, but the news don't even want to look much less report - and the police... let's just say that they fit right in with dominionist plans and goals... and we do have evidence of deliberate and direct steeplejacking.


by ArchaeoBob on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:44:14 AM EST
Parent






The Power of Prayer? (none / 0)
If talk2action remains the active forum it is (which it will), then Wagner should be forced to admit either that prayer doesn't work or that t2a isn't spewing "false accusations". Of course, that would require logical thinking and a willingness to acknowledge one's mistakes...

by RevRuthUCC on Sun Oct 16, 2011 at 07:23:55 PM EST
Of course it also needs to be said (none / 0)
that neither Wagner or anyone else have specified any false accusations written about NAR by anyone at this site.  

by Frederick Clarkson on Sun Oct 16, 2011 at 09:54:23 PM EST
Parent


my argument (none / 0)
I am appalled that one who professes to be a follower of Christ would make the statement, Works are more powerful than the Word of God.  Just the fact that he went to the trouble to capitalize the word "Word, lets me know that he understands the power of God's Word.  It is He who said that He exalts His Word even above His very name!

And then...to make bad matters worse, he states, More manifestations and LESS Bible."

I believe this gentlemen and anyone who is mistakenly following his ideas is in danger of God's judgement.  

by theshepherdsgirl on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 02:30:59 AM EST

It isn't surprising... (none / 0)
... if you know something about this group's theology, particularly as relates to apostles and prophets.  They believe that they have the divine prerogative to speak reality into existence (a book by my former movement's top prophet, Jim Laffoon, wrote some time back used that exact phrase, "divine prerogative," in this context).  It's not quite the same as "name it and claim it" associated with the Word-Faith movement but is related.  But they believe (or, at least many of its leaders believe) that they are literally the incarnation of Christ on earth and have divine authority.

They believe they are speaking the Word (as in divine Logos) into existence, since they believe they are foundational apostles and prophets.  Foundational=they have the same authority to speak divine scripture into existence, and that their very top apostolic leadership will form the 12 foundation stones/pillars of the New Jerusalem, essentially merging positionally and spiritually with the 12 biblical apostles.

Now, among "non-believers" (ie, those not totally bought into the NAR and in its leadership structure), they may deny that but I have documented audio, text, and video evidence that this is true... I'm sure that those researching this movement here have come across the same or similar.

The thing that is confusing about this movement is that they use more colloquial American (Protestant) Christian rhetoric and language... but it means something totally different in many cases.  There's a meaning below the surface meaning.

by ulyankee on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:39:28 AM EST
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Extremely obnoxious protesters at WitchsFest NYC: connected to NAR?
In July of this year, some extremely loud, obnoxious Christian-identified protesters showed up at WitchsFest, an annual Pagan street fair here in NYC.  Here's an account of the protest by Pagan writer Heather Greene......
Diane Vera (130 comments)
Capitalism and the Attack on the Imago Dei
I joined this site today, having been linked here by Crooksandliars' Blog Roundup. I thought I'd put up something I put up previously on my Wordpress blog and also at the DailyKos. As will......
Xulon (331 comments)
History of attitudes towards poverty and the churches.
Jesus is said to have stated that "The Poor will always be with you" and some Christians have used that to refuse to try to help the poor, because "they will always be with......
ArchaeoBob (149 comments)
Alternate economy medical treatment
Dogemperor wrote several times about the alternate economy structure that dominionists have built.  Well, it's actually made the news.  Pretty good article, although it doesn't get into how bad people could be (have been)......
ArchaeoBob (90 comments)
Evidence violence is more common than believed
Think I've been making things up about experiencing Christian Terrorism or exaggerating, or that it was an isolated incident?  I suggest you read this article (linked below in body), which is about our great......
ArchaeoBob (214 comments)

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