Can the US afford organized religion?
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Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:19:15 PM EST
This is a speculative posting, so please don't criticize me for taken the position expressed, I'm just wondering out loud.

The history of the world has shown that those societies which place a great deal of reliance on organized religion have had poorer economic and social progress than others.

Organized religions have several characteristics in common.

They are hierarchical, that is the religious leaders interpret dogma and tell others how to behave in order to conform.

They believe the truth lies in the past as revealed by certain special prior leaders and/or texts. The consequence is that the goal is to try to conform as nearly as possible to the former ideal state.

They believe that the goals of life are spiritual, not material, and that a focus on the here and now should not be primary.

Contrast this with the societies of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.

Dogma is not important, nor is unquestioned authority. What is important is to test all beliefs against reality and keep only those which can be verified.

Rules set down in the past are no more important that present ones, if they fail the tests.

The goals of life are to discover or invent things which will make life on earth better now. The spiritual is an internal matter and should not effect public policy.

Countries which have become dominated by religion tend to do poorly economically. The most recent example being Iran. What was a developing industrial country has been pushed backwards about 100 years. Progress has ceased, social policies promoting equality (especially for minorities and women) have been eliminated and unemployment stands at about 30%.

The US is already showing many signs of religious beliefs affecting scientific and social policy. Other countries who compete with us economically are not subject to the same restrictions and may pull ahead of us. Stem cell research is the most obvious example. What happens if some other country uses this research and find a cure for cancer, say, and then refuses to share it with us for competitive reasons?

So is the prominence of conservative, authoritarian, religious groups going to cause the US to lose its economic strength?




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On the ideologically driven assault currently being mounted by the Christian Right in the US against the teaching of Evolution and against the scientific community ( as in recent attempts to prevent James Hansen from speaking out on Global Warming ) I have to strongly dissuade you from broad brush attacks on all forms of organized religion. That is antogonistic to the nature of this site ( see the site guidlelines, in the link at the top right  named "guidelines" ).

But I don't want to dismiss your hypothesis out of hand, so:

First, organized religion has often historically been a powerful vector for economic progress. See - for example - Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism".

While such a discussion could go on probably indefinitely, I would venture to say that history roundly rebuts your central hypothesis. Until rather recently, organized religion has been central to most - even all - civilizations we know of. Let me suggest that you look towards ideology rather than religion for such explanatory schemes.

Jared Diamond has done some nice work on the subject, and the operant factors he identifies which gave Northern European nations ( which were most certainly highly religious ) the avantages they plied into conquest and World empire had little to do with religion pe se and everything to do with mostly accidental, prosaic factors : geographic location, availability of plants and animals for domestication, the patchwork nature of Europe - divided into small kingdoms and or political units, which spurred various forms of innovation, and so on.

I am not saying that organized religion cannot squelch economic and scientific progress, but secular centralized authority - as in the case of Lysenkoist science under Stalinism, or the genocidal purges of Cambodian intelligensia under Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge - can undermine economic and scientific progress quite efficiently too.

I think the explanatory frame you are looking for is likely that of totalistic thinking, rather than of organized religion. Totalistic thinking arises in both religious and secular contexts.

by Bruce Wilson on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:40:23 PM EST

Debates about the validity of organized religion aren't appropriate for this site nor are - for that matter - attacks on the validity of atheistic or agnostic beliefs.

by Bruce Wilson on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:44:54 PM EST
Parent

You misunderstood my thesis.

The Church of England did not hold back the industrial revolution, nor did the Lutherans in Germany. Your citing of Weber proves this.

But, notice that Ataturk had to "secularize" Turkey in order to move it towards a modern economic state. And look what the theocracy in Iran has done to economic conditions there.

My thesis has to do with the influence of organized religion on the character of what are usually considered the secular parts of society: commerce and industry. I thought the whole point of this site was the feeling that the religious right is moving towards control, or influence, of just these areas of US government. So I don't see why a question as to the effects of religious intervention into business and science, and the potential impact on the economic success of a society, is inappropriate for this site.

If industrial or education policy is made to conform to a specific religious dogma and it negatively impacts economic output and international competitiveness then that would seem to be a good argument for separation of church and state. Not all arguments have to be based upon freedom of speech or worship.

-- Policies not Politics
by rdf on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:25:30 PM EST
Parent

"notice that Ataturk had to "secularize" Turkey in order to move it towards a modern economic state. And look what the theocracy in Iran has done to economic conditions there." - Other countries have modernized without being forcibly secularized. We'll never know what would have happened in Turkey without Ataturk's forced secularization - so isn't the 'necessity' of that speculative ? As for Iran, one example does not make a rule.

"My thesis has to do with the influence of organized religion on the character of what are usually considered the secular parts of society: commerce and industry." - Well, I think what your expressing, to put in in my own terms, is the proposition that when pre-rational, a-rational, or "presuppositionalist" explanations are forcibly imposed on commerce and industry, to displace scientific explanations, the results tend to be dismal in economic terms .  The same could be said for medical and all scientific research, or any rationalized sphere of human endeavor.

We use science and logic - as tools - so widely because they tend to be most effective, compared to - say - magic, at  getting the job done, sure.

I had to object to your title because this site walks a fine line between atheism and agnosticism and religion - respecting all camps and favoring none. Your title seemed to imply that all organized religion might be problematic for economic success when your actual point was to suggest that the forcible imposition - on the part of some organized religions of religious explanations, to displace scientific ones, in business ( and education, commerce, science... ) might hurt American economic competitiveness.

People on this site hold a wide variety of faiths and beliefs - and many belong to organized religions and would be your logical allies, for they believe in strong church / state separation and in equality for religious belief ( or the lack of that ).

Broad brushed attacks on something so amorphous as "organized religion" will put you in a very small camp indeed - and quite unecessarily. My point is on selecting your foes with precision. Many Christians ( and people of other faiths ) in the US are as strongly against forcily imposing religious dogma on industrial and educational policy, or on science and business, as you are.

by Bruce Wilson on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:29:32 PM EST
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